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Final Cut Pro HLG process with LOG footage

Hi all, I recently started dipping my toes into HDR footage and I love the look of it (when its not too HDR’ish but still capturing a large dynamic range)


One thing I struggle with is a proper workflow with Canon R5 footage in Final Cut Pro, so if anyone can suggest improvements on the below steps or share their process that would be much appreciated.


I record footage in 4K, with IPB LIGHT compression (for reduced file sizes, never tested but if the difference is small I’m ok with it), CLOG3, REC709.


On my Mac I import the files in my Final Cut Pro library (set as Wide Gamut HDR library). From there on out I create a project and until now I either set the color space to Rec709 or Wide Gamut Rec2020. I feel like I need to utilize the Wide Gamut Rec2020 HLG color space to fully extract range in tones of the footage, but when I do so it darkens the clip, when exporting in HEVC 10-bit 4.2.2 it stays this dark. I recall having tried an export with HDR footage from my iPhone and when exporting in Wide Gamut Rec2020 HLG color space in HEVC 10-bit 4.2.2 format, it displays correct brightness, and plays back nicely on My Mac with XDR display.


I am not as experienced with color spaces for video, as with RAW photos you can change the color space in editing, though it might be that footage recorded in Rec709 will not change or export well to Rec2020. So next I want to try changing the color space on my R5 to Cinema Gamut Rec2020 and see if the footage reacts differently when applying the Rec2020 HLG color space to the FCPX Project.


Few questions:


Is this workflow benefitting the tonal range of my R5 CLOG3 footage or is it minimal compared to exporting the graded footage as HEVC 8-bit 4.2.0 and call it a day? If it is helping considerably, can I go back to my older FCPX libraries, change them to Wide Gamut and export some Rec709 footage to a better looking Rec2020 result in 10-bit output?


Can someone explain what is going on with the darkening of the footage when changing the color space to Wide Gamut HLG?


Thank you for any insights in the process.

Marc

Posted on Jun 2, 2023 6:50 AM

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Posted on Jun 2, 2023 8:00 AM

mpdeboer wrote:

Hi all, I recently started dipping my toes into HDR footage and I love the look of it (when its not too HDR’ish but still capturing a large dynamic range)

One thing I struggle with is a proper workflow with Canon R5 footage in Final Cut Pro, so if anyone can suggest improvements on the below steps or share their process that would be much appreciated.

I record footage in 4K, with IPB LIGHT compression (for reduced file sizes, never tested but if the difference is small I’m ok with it), CLOG3, REC709.


There are two things, which FCP tends to conflate (and shouldn't): color space and dynamic range. In other words, wide gamut and HDR. They don't necessarily go together. You might also want to add in 8-bit vs. 10-bit color. "Wide gamut" refers to a color space larger than Rec. 709 or sRGB. Examples of wide gamut color spaces would be "P3" or Rec. 2020 (both offer more colors than the other two mentioned).


If your R5 is set to record CLog3 and Rec. 709, that is not HDR, nor wide gamut. It's SDR. The log recording has nothing to do with HDR (necessarily). I wouldn't suggest using log settings unless you are also using 10-bit color, as log recordings tend to "steal resolution" from mid-range values to the benefit of highlights and shadows (with 8-bit color, this can have detrimental effects on mid-tones, i.e., skin colors).


Rec. 2020 specifies the largest color space (compared with sRGB, Rec. 709, and P3). It _really_ doesn't specifically deal with dynamic range (or the number of light levels), but Rec. 2100 does. So, it can be confusing in which terminology software or some camera manufacturers use when talking about this stuff. This topic is quite deep and I'll stop here for fear of further oversimplification and possible confusion.


You need to base your decisions when recording footage and using FCP on what the deliverable spec. is. If your deliverable is a highly compressed format like H.264 or HEVC/H.265 with reduced color sampling and bit-depth, you may be wasting storage resources (for larger files) or processing bandwidth and UI fluidity (in FCP) for little gain.


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Jun 2, 2023 8:00 AM in response to mpdeboer

mpdeboer wrote:

Hi all, I recently started dipping my toes into HDR footage and I love the look of it (when its not too HDR’ish but still capturing a large dynamic range)

One thing I struggle with is a proper workflow with Canon R5 footage in Final Cut Pro, so if anyone can suggest improvements on the below steps or share their process that would be much appreciated.

I record footage in 4K, with IPB LIGHT compression (for reduced file sizes, never tested but if the difference is small I’m ok with it), CLOG3, REC709.


There are two things, which FCP tends to conflate (and shouldn't): color space and dynamic range. In other words, wide gamut and HDR. They don't necessarily go together. You might also want to add in 8-bit vs. 10-bit color. "Wide gamut" refers to a color space larger than Rec. 709 or sRGB. Examples of wide gamut color spaces would be "P3" or Rec. 2020 (both offer more colors than the other two mentioned).


If your R5 is set to record CLog3 and Rec. 709, that is not HDR, nor wide gamut. It's SDR. The log recording has nothing to do with HDR (necessarily). I wouldn't suggest using log settings unless you are also using 10-bit color, as log recordings tend to "steal resolution" from mid-range values to the benefit of highlights and shadows (with 8-bit color, this can have detrimental effects on mid-tones, i.e., skin colors).


Rec. 2020 specifies the largest color space (compared with sRGB, Rec. 709, and P3). It _really_ doesn't specifically deal with dynamic range (or the number of light levels), but Rec. 2100 does. So, it can be confusing in which terminology software or some camera manufacturers use when talking about this stuff. This topic is quite deep and I'll stop here for fear of further oversimplification and possible confusion.


You need to base your decisions when recording footage and using FCP on what the deliverable spec. is. If your deliverable is a highly compressed format like H.264 or HEVC/H.265 with reduced color sampling and bit-depth, you may be wasting storage resources (for larger files) or processing bandwidth and UI fluidity (in FCP) for little gain.


Jun 7, 2023 10:47 PM in response to Davis_

Hi Davis, 


Thank you for clearing up these points. Really and I mean really helped me grasp a decent understanding of coloring and toning with the footage I am working with.


There is one last thing that I'd like to understand, and perhaps you have some good explanation/ knowledge on the following to complete the last piece of the puzzle.


I had a clip of CLOG3+Rec2020) which I dropped in a FCP timeline set to Wide Gamut Rec 2020 HLG to experiment with the settings a little bit. One of them I exported in Rec709, with a LUT from Canon that grades 2020 to 709, one of them I exported in Rec2020 With a Rec2020 LUT applied. One of the clips was added to the timeline and In the video settings I applied a gamma setting in the Clip settings section and exported as Rec2020 HLG.


And one of the clips was edited with a Canon LUT converting from Rec2020 to Rec2020 HLG and exported as Rec2020 HLG.


Of all the results I vastly prefer the colors on the last export setting. The tones in the highlight are also showing a nice range in brightness and saturation when playing on the XDR display of my MacBook. For the example clip used, I can't really tell if it is definitely the better result as the shadows render mushy in all of them. Maybe a limitation of grading footage from CLOG?


What are your thoughts on the above? Is it really worth moving to the Rec2020 HLG output or should I stick to the Rec2020 -> Rec2020 workflow?


Ps: photo below is taken as a picture instead of a screenshot, as the screenshot blows out the XDR supported nit levels.


Thanks,


Marc




Jun 2, 2023 11:40 AM in response to Davis_

Hi Davis,


Thank you very much for the detailed answer, this cleared up much of the confusion I had.


Getting back to your last comment, I am looking to output a file-size efficient format, with enough tonal range both in brightness levels and color breath in FCP to compress down from.


So gathering your comments, to get the broadest color space (wide gamut) in camera I should use the Rec2020 setting and the broadest tonal range (HDR) I should set the camera to record "HDR PQ", and set up my workflow as such in FCP?


Basically my footage up until now (CLOG+Rec709) will not be suitable to be turned into HDR + Wide Gamut color clips in 10-bit 4.2.2 exports? I should treat them as Rec709 8-bit 4.2.0 files for output?


The reason for the confusion I guess is that I was treating CLOG sort of like a Raw format, where the flat nature of the file meant I could go for the broadest dynamic range and color gamut processing in FCP.


Thanks again for clarifying these points, it helps me avoid a lot of further confusion going forward.


Marc

Jun 2, 2023 6:11 PM in response to mpdeboer

Marc,


Getting back to your last comment, I am looking to output a file-size efficient format, with enough tonal range both in brightness levels and color breath in FCP to compress down from.

When you say "output a file-size efficient format", do you mean what you captured/recorded on the camera?


From what I can tell from the camera recording specs (I don't see anything HDR in the specs but the overview info says something about HDR PQ), for SDR you can choose from H.265/HEVC 4:2:2 10-Bit, H.264 4:2:0 8-Bit or Raw 12-Bit internally, and 4:2:2 10-Bit via HDMI. In lieu of choosing the better formats (Raw or HDMI out), H.265/HEVC 4:2:2 10-Bit seems like the best choice for recordings, if small file sizes are required.


For HDR, you only have one choice, "HDR PQ". I don't know what the bit depth of that format is (I'm guessing 10-Bit) or the color subsampling (4:2:0 or 4:2:2?). Is the "HDR PQ" recorded as HEVC or H.264?


I don't know what you mean about "enough tonal range..." FCP can utilize pretty much whatever you can give it, depending on how you set up and use FCP.


So gathering your comments, to get the broadest color space (wide gamut) in camera I should use the Rec2020 setting and the broadest tonal range (HDR) I should set the camera to record "HDR PQ", and set up my workflow as such in FCP?

Other than recording in RAW or via HDMI, I guess this would be okay.


I always tend to use a "Wide Gamut HDR" Library for all of my projects, regardless of color space, in which things were recorded, or if material was shot in "HDR". The "Wide Gamut HDR" nomenclature is somewhat misleading, in that you don't need to have HDR for wide gamut media, and HDR media could be limited to Rec. 709 colors. I haven't found any completely clear explanation of this stuff in any Apple documentation (they used to have excellent documentation in v. 1 through 7 of FCP). It's rather opaque, too much so, for a "pro" application (especially when compared with other NLEs).


So, use a "Wide Gamut HDR" Library, then choose your Project/timeline according to how the output should be (Rec. 709 or Rec. 2020, with HDR or SDR).


Basically my footage up until now (CLOG+Rec709) will not be suitable to be turned into HDR + Wide Gamut color clips in 10-bit 4.2.2 exports? I should treat them as Rec709 8-bit 4.2.0 files for output?

The output from FCP is based on the codec you choose on export (and limited by the color space and other settings for a given Project/timeline).


The recording format is the limiting factor. Depending on how you set up and use FCP, it may be useful to have the highest quality SDR footage, especially if you're going to do a lot of color grading/correction.


Your above statement is somewhat ambiguous. You can't really turn SDR footage into HDR footage. You might be able to "stretch" the levels of SDR footage to a point.


The reason for the confusion I guess is that I was treating CLOG sort of like a Raw format, where the flat nature of the file meant I could go for the broadest dynamic range and color gamut processing in FCP.

This stuff is confusing, at times, even when you know or understand most of it. Log gamma used in recording is useful, but it isn't the panacea it's made out to be by the camera and gear manufacturers. CLog (gamma setting) affects perceived dynamic range by sampling more levels from shadows and highlights at the detriment of mid-tones (it's a trade-off). The absolute range of levels (0 to 100 IRE for SDR footage, plus or minus up to 10, depending on the camera) isn't changed by recording using a log gamma, so saying (as many people do) that the dynamic range is greater when shooting log gamma isn't technically correct or precise. Better control of lighting and scene/shot construction is what the focus should be on when recording footage.


The color processing pipeline/workflow in FCP is a bit ambiguous. I'll leave things brief by saying that if you apply a technical (color space conversion) LUT in the camera LUT part of the FCP interface, further processing is constrained by that (making things "display-referred"). If you don't apply any LUTs (do all correction manually) or only apply a technical LUT (and optionally, one or more creative/artist/"looks" LUTs) at the end of the processing chain (at the bottom of the list of effects in the FCP inspector) you maintain the wider gamut from the recording (in which case this would be called "scene-referred"). This stuff is pretty clear in DaVinci Resolve, but it is a "black box" in FCP (at least in terms of documentation, i.e., the lack thereof).


Testing a complete workflow is the best way to sort things and ensure you get the best results. Learning to use scopes is good, as well. This should be enough to confuse you further or get you into trouble... ;-)



Cheers.

Jun 2, 2023 6:13 PM in response to Davis_

Continuing previous post...


(ran afoul of the 5000 character limit)


Note:

You should check the camera maker's docs to see the exact specifications of the LUTs they provide. The camera maker should specify the info about the source (recorded) color space and the resulting color space for a given LUT (as well as "levels"). Some people make the mistake of using a 3rd-party LUT that may not use the color space conversion they expect (for a technical/conversion LUT), may be intended as a "look" (artistic/creative LUT that doesn't include a color space conversion); or (3) may include both a color space conversion with other aspects ("combo" LUT). Also, some LUTs may assume "video/limited" or "full/computer" input levels, which can siginficantly affect the shadows and highlights if misued. User beware.


Final Cut Pro HLG process with LOG footage

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